Ahh Brotha Wolf. You’ve messed up again. His post is copied and pasted below, and clicking the title will bring you right to it. My responses will be in red.
I have a problem right off the bat. I’m not a Troll. I started my blog to help me catalog data and organize my thoughts. It helps me challenge arguments and solidify my worldview in a fact-based way. I don’t do this to troll anyone. I do it to challenge myself. It is a relatively new use for the word, so Urban Dictionary will have to suffice:
Trolling – (verb), as it relates to internet, is the deliberate act, (by a Troll – noun or adjective), of making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument
Trolling on-line forums as described above is actually analogous to the fishing technique of “trolling”, where colorful baits and lures are pulled behind a slow moving boat, often with multiple fishing lines, covering a large bodies of water, such as a large lake or the ocean. The trolling lures attract unsuspecting fish, intriguing them with the way they move through the water, thus enticing these foolish fish to “take the bait”. Not unlike unsuspecting internet victims, once hooked, the fish are reeled in for the catch before they realize they have been duped by the Troll/Fisherman
My responses are not random, nor are they designed to get a reaction from anyone. They are not an attempt to bait anyone. They are my thoughts organized in a way that is available to public scrutiny. This is done intentionally and directly. The points I address are for my benefit, not your egocentric victimhood. Sorry BW, just because someone argues with you, does not make them a troll.
I still plan on doing a reboot in a couple of months, or less. I hope to make a fresh start with a new blog and continue contributing to online conversations about today’s issues. Although, I won’t be covering everything, but I still hope to discuss some topics such as racism, sexism and others. I hope those of you who follow me will join me there. Please keep checking back for more details. Oh…I’ll be checking back.
Now, with that out of the way, I want to give a retrospective on dealing with interlopers of the right wing variety. And dealing with them, I may invoke the wrath of a few by writing about them in a not-so-flattering way. Even if I stress that this DOESN’T cover all of those who believe in right wing ideals, it will likely still sting them in a very sensitive place. In other words, they will make this about me slamming them. And no, this is not about one particular conservative troll or even two, but several I’ve observed in this and other blogs and forums. Data? Meta analysis of your observations? Or is this just…anecdotes?
I learned that to disagree is okay, and if you do, it’s cool to have an honest and civil conversation about it. If it comes to debate, that can be civil as well. We can agree to disagree, and if there’s a problem, let’s talk it out. We may not understand each other’s views, but let’s act like adults and respect each other’s differences, and if there’s a problem, let’s talk about it and see what can be done to make things better for both of us. I don’t have to respect differences at all. I firmly adhere to evidence and data. If I don’t have those things, I don’t believe the claim. It is that simple. If there are differences of opinion, it is because your opinion is unsubstantiated.
After dealing with self-proclaimed conservatives who trolled on this and other blogs they’ve targeted, it appears that civility and honesty is not in their cards. It’s sad to say this, but it was like dealing with spoiled children who demand to have their way or else you’ll deal with what some would consider as cyberbullying. Civility is irrelevant. Civility does not dictate validity or efficiency. Honesty, however, is different. I have always sourced my points with data and links. I even link the pieces I rebut, directly in the post. IN THEIR ENTIRETY. You never have gone that far. You wouldn’t dare. Because you never refute the data, methods, or offer contrary studies. You just reference your liberal op eds, and do more ad hominem attacks like this. We are not the spoiled children here. I’m sorry that facts threaten you and make you feel bullied. Your feelings are irrelevant.
The conservative trolls I’ve had the misfortune to run into or had commenting in my blog were mostly attracted to issues of race and racism. In so many words, what is said by people of color, whether they’re personal experiences, reported incidences, empirical evidence and factual information, is wrong. Not only that, the people of color who express their grievances are considered dumb, delusional and(or) and racist against whites. What info they put on the table is wrong. They demand “actual proof” despite some being given. To them, it’s a leftist ploy to guilt white people. Yes. I will always demand actual proof. Data. Evidence. Always. I’m not ashamed of that. You are also correct that what people of color say doesn’t matter. Neither do their experiences. Those are subjective and pointless. By the same token…my experiences are irrelevant as well. However, I have FREQUENTLY provided sourced data from the National Victimhood Survey, which is the categorically organized reported incidents and empirical evidence by people of color. You never have done that. Guess what? The data from people of color supports my positions, not yours.
They think these are not only the ways to win non-arguments, but shows intellectual their prowess that counters and destroys liberal thinking. Intellectual debate is typically done to establish a basis of truth. You keep failing. Therefore, you are inferior in this regard.
To be honest, they’re so much better at it than liberals. That still doesn’t make them right, not all the time at least. So you are condemning us for demanding “actual proof” and being better at intellectual debate? I gotta tell you, cupcake…those two things generally make someone right. A lot closer than your method.
I honestly never experienced anything like it first hand or online. Then you need to hang out around smarter people. I felt like I was arguing with bratty, immature children. Your feelings are irrelevant. What’s worse is some refuse to consider their words offensive or toxic, and are driven to win an argument that wasn’t even called for. Words can’t be toxic. You can’t eat them. These words are digital and inedible. They don’t want to be held accountable for their statements and instead blame me and others for being offended in the first place. Unbelievable. Correct. I’m not responsible for your emotions. You are. This is called emotional maturity. If I feel tired, I don’t blame you. If I feel amused, I don’t credit you. I am responsible for those emotions and their subsequent expression. I hold you to the same standard of maturation.
I can’t stress enough that I’m not against conservatives, conservatism, white people, men, straight people and Christians for being what they are. A majority of your posts reflect the racist sentiment against white people that is echoed in your corporate media talking heads. You say you aren’t against all those things, yet…you use their baseless arguments to attack. I simply defend. My encounters with some online made me out to be the real bad guy for talking about such sensitive issues as opposed to the actual truths and realities that many groups deal with. You never seem to use data or evidence. I question your definition of “truths and realities.” They seem more angry at that the former rather than the latter. Some don’t think the latter is as bad as it is or as bad as we say it is. Such talk is against certain people that’s put in the same vein as the actual discrimination marginalized people face and that’s a bigger problem. It leads me to believe that these types read what they want to read and draw conclusions based on emotion rather than reality and facts, and the one emotion they don’t want to feel in any way, whether they’ve done anything or not, is guilt. I do not associate the sensation of “guilt” with you in any regard. If data makes you unhappy, I experience no emotion either way. Because I’m responsible for my own emotions.
Again, the conservative trolls I’ve seen were mostly concerned with the discussion of racism (and trolling it into the ground), but they’ve also entered threads and forums concerning sexism, homophobia, transphobia and Islamophobia. Also again, in so many words, they defend why they think feminism is a farce, why the LGBT community is “weird”, why Muslims are terrorists by default and why Jews are just plain evil. This is spoken in absolution. Not all of them do this. This is a broad caricature, unsubstantiated by any meta-analysis. Also, statistically, terrorists are much more likely to be Muslim than Presbyterian. Some Jews are absolutely evil. Some Buddhists are. Some vegans are. I can rip apart this blanket statement in so many ways.
But their greatest beef is toward anything by and from the left. They hate liberals with a passion. They’re fiercely against progression, especially if it involves casting a spotlight on inequality and oppression against women, people of color, etc. And even though he’s been out of office, they’re still pissed off at Obama for simply being there. Yes. Hitler is dead, and I’m unhappy with his regime as well. Someone leaving their post does not erase the wrongs they did during that time. This should be obvious.
Basically, through observing their blogs and comments, I came up with these overall conclusions.
They mostly think straight, white Christian males are superior based on “studies” based on scientific racism (though some won’t consider it racist but fact instead.) or certain historical, political and scientific achievements and as such deserve to be at the top, the breadwinners, the centers of the universe where their views are the only views that everyone must adhere to. If any group was responsible for the majority of scientific advancement, the most stable societies, and the most equity among the people, I would honor them. Regardless of gender, sexuality or skin color. However, I would point out that Western society is a collaborative effort that involves the input of many individuals. I would also point out you have no idea what people think.
Yet, they also believe they are now the downtrodden demographic in America due to talks and moves to uplift and empower marginalized groups. It’s a zero-sum pseudo-reality to them, and they’re the ones getting shafted thanks to liberalism. In their minds, most institutions are against their conservative values. The media, universities, politics and justice, virtually everything caters to progressive values which makes them feel ostracized. They detest equality, and see society plunge into a new age of socialism and communism similar to Nazi Germany. This is a fine summation of what your corporate masters want you to say. Well done. Some institutions are demonstrably discriminating against conservatives. Egregiously so. I do not detest equality of opportunity. I detest enforced equality of outcome. Likewise, equality of existence is a myth. You are not my equal, and you never will be. It is impossible, both from a quantum mechanics and genetics perspective.
To them, white genocide is in progress because of liberalism or because another right wing personality says so. No, its because of data. See the data below from the Brookings Institute. This is critical to understand. We aren’t holding a population (which would result in us becoming minorities.) We are actively declining. Which means, without any demographic pressures at all, we will go extinct. Add in demographic pressure, and we absolutely will and MUCH faster. It’s hard for men to be men thanks to feminism. It is. Especially when it is a punishable offense to have our legs open, manspreading. Black liberal activists are considered racist against white people, way more so than any white supremacist group against blacks. Yep. Not just black activists either. In fact, just today, a twitter user named “verifiedhate” was banned. His offense? He shared screen captures ONLY of people who openly advocated for genocide and hate of whites. Each person he shared was verified on Twitter (hence the name.) Yes, people hate whites. They cite movements like Black Lives Matter and the Black Panther Party and any violence crime in the news where there’s a white victim and a black suspect as proof that white people are unjustly killed off by the thousands. We are. You idiot. By black people mostly.
America is becoming browner thanks to the influx of immigrants of color, and like their leader Donald Trump, that makes them frightened and furious. Yes. As it should. What if Japanese people became a minority in Japan? What if Chinese became a minority in China? Wouldn’t both of those drastic demographic shifts spark, not only global concern, but fear and fury in the population? Yet when we look at the same demographic trends in European countries and North America, we are the ONLY demographic expected to role over and embrace it. Bullshit. I’d expect any and all people to stand up for their ancestral homelands.
Let’s not forget crime statistics, welfare use, and general stability of a society. Do you…honestly…want us gone? Do you think that is a good idea? REALLY?!
The funny thing is that a lot of these trolls – not all of them – doesn’t seem to be just as concerned about much else. I’m not saying they aren’t as other issues come up, but from what I’ve seen, identity politics are their biggest button to push. They’re not as equality concerned with the issue of pro-life vs. pro-choice, small government – unless Democrats and liberals are in charge, fiscal spending, foreign policy and even gun control. Though, free speech is always their hang-up in that they’re hard pressed in wanting to say anything they want without the worry of consequences. Again, this is through my experience alone. Your experience is irrelevant. No one should make public policy of any kind based on your experience. It has no meaning.
But being white and(or) male in a changing world are the popular concerns of these right wing folks, and they’re not handling it well. It appears they see their struggle as the only struggle that matters. Yes. The challenges that I face, and that my heirs face is more important to me than you will ever be. One would think that feeling this way would make them understand how it feels to be a person of color, a woman, gay, transsexual or Muslim in a nation that continues to devalue their worth, paints them as threats to order and takes methods to make sure the status quo isn’t shaken by preventing progress by any and all means. We aren’t doing the painting, you moron. We aren’t making transsexuals…transexualize. We don’t make muslims blow people up. We don’t make people of color abort their kids and commit crime. We don’t make women stay out of STEM and business. I don’t make gay people be gay. Yet, I’ve seem them not empathetic enough to care and not smart enough to see the irony. Once again, it’s zero-sum logic. Being straight, white and male is hard while it’s easier and better being anyone else. Yes. Because you can publicly stigmatize my race, gender, and sexuality. This is impossible with any other group. It is morally abhorrent to do it to any group without evidence to support the claim. We all know what happens when you isolate a group.
I guess that’s why they scoff at the concept of white privilege. You can’t prove it exists. That is why I scoff.
What’s even more disturbing is how those with extreme right ideals will go after progressive activists, online especially. Trolling and juvenile cyberbullying devolves into harassment, threats and the release of personal information. Human decency is thrown out the window while unsound desperation is thrown in as the trolls go all out to destroy their target’s esteem, privacy and their lives in general. I guess the mentality is that liberalism and progression is not only bad, it must be stopped or destroyed. Lies must be stopped and destroyed.
I’ve never seen anyone say how being a straight, white Christian male is perfect and without problems, nor have I seen anyone refute that they too have problems like anyone else. Of course, life is hard for everyone, even them. Still, they have societal advantages that other people don’t get to experience. Name. One. It’s not about wealth or power; it’s about access and treatment. Name. One. You’ll never be able to.
Also, the left is not without its faults. There is plenty of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. among that side as well. Some are surprised that’s true. And that’s a problem in itself. Sex offenders, corrupt politicians, corporate shills…..
On the record, I know conservatism is not a straight white males only club. I know there are women, people of color and the like who had sided with the right. But when it comes to trolling, they appear to be the majority in that department. Only don’t question what race, gender and sexual orientation they are. They seem rather annoyed by it. Yes, because you have called me “straight” for two years now. I’ve also never been genetically tested. I appear to be male, but now (thanks to your side) even that could be in flux. I can assure you 33% of those labels are false.
I wish I could understand this hostility that lacks a sense of humanity and a loose grasp on reality. Me too. I’ve offered data and facts. Does that help your hostility and loose grasp on reality? I can only guess that some of these folks either have a lot and are scared as hell of losing it. They believe that all the activism will somehow take away what they’ve earned or think they’ve earned and they wage a war against morality, decency, truth and justice. Oh its a war alright. And your arguments have the most impotent weapons. Some reject a change in reality so much they will fight tooth and nail to maintain tradition even if it’s to accept, empower and distribute hatred. Then, there are those who have little and are working hard to get a piece of the American Dream, but feel screwed by being told that everyone else is getting something for nothing, while they work hard and still struggle to make ends meet. But there are some who have little and have chosen not to try to get out of their hole. Yet, they still feel like the world is keeping them down and instead of pulling up their bootstraps, bettering themselves and fight against the odds, they prefer to be lazy, hateful, ignorant jerks thinking they’re entitled to whatever they want possessing little to no redeeming qualities and plenty of faults and pathologies they seemingly prefer to latch on to and use against others who don’t share their attitudes. Being WHAT THEY ARE as oppose to WHAT THEY DO is their reason for being treated as outcasts, and they refuse to see themselves as problems. You seem to know a lot about what we think and feel. Unless you can demonstrate your telepathic ability, I’m going to disregard this entire unsubstantiated paragraph.
Maybe they’re just mentally ill.
I honestly don’t know what it is. But I know I couldn’t have a decent, adult talk with them without them itching for name calling, condescension and a burning desire to demonize the left even though the subject didn’t call for it. In the end, one can’t disagree with them without them going fragile and shatter into pieces. Many of today’s conservatives have adopted harmful values that they consider to be genuinely American but have been against what America is supposedly about.
And they seem blindly proud of it.
Blindly proud? No. I use facts to understand the world around me. That doesn’t necessitate my pride. The things you say are in direct opposition to the data I’ve observed. Thus, I oppose you. What you are observing in me and many others is not mental illness. It is a natural inclination to verify our belief system.
Regrettably for you, the belief system you adhere to is unable to withstand this new pressure. It is curious, watching you flounder and decay. Your arguments are generally emotional, based on your internal dialogue, as opposed to sourced data. This is the same type of emotional and impulsive thought that I would expect. Generally a lower IQ is indicative of an inability to grasp abstraction. It is quite possible that data is too indirect for you to understand.
Maybe I’d come across more clearly if I used classical conditioning and slices of fruit? What an interesting concept. Could adherence to an abstraction be induced in other great apes using food? Social pressures seem to work well enough.
In either case, attempting to convey these ideas may never be achieved. They are simply too complex. Structured debate exceeds your capabilities. However, this is not my original goal. I remain resolute in my data-derived world view. You offered no sources, no data, no facts. Only more emotional pleas, hyperbole, and logical fallacy.